Saturday, 11 July 2009
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Legality and Christianity
Krissy_Cole, in a recent comment to me, said this...
"People attack the church because it--nay, we--make ourselves such easy targets through our self-righteousness. We call for government involvement in issues that the church itself needs to figure out a way to address because having the government set a "law" dictating that something we disagree with is illegal is much simpler than trying to love someone who has or does do the thing with which we disagree."
It made me think very hard about what the christians are trying to do and why. I think we have been going about some things in all the wrong ways. To make something illegal because we don't want to have to deal with it seems like a dumb way to skirt around an issue, yet I think it's what we've tried to do in some instances.
The only things that seemingly should be "illegal" are things that would harm others, in a physical or emotional way, such as abortion, homicide, etc., but then where is it defined? How is the line drawn? I've still not come to my final conclusions on this but I wanted to ask all of you what you think of this?
Have christians tried to force the law to make up for our lack of love? Was God more interested in changing people, by forcing them to do what he said, or winning them by His love and compassion toward them? Where is the line between legality and christian laws that shouldn't be forced on nonbelievers?
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Comments (145)
Gay marriage is an issue here, isn't it?
an axiom of life should be that people are repelled by anything perceived as done without love..
@merely_a_christian - What exactly are you asking?
@Simbathe2nd - nothing, really. Just observing. Most times I hear this argument it's in relation to gay marriage, because "you can't prove that it hurts anybody," so let consenting adults do what they want.
@merely_a_christian - In the context of the post with the comment it was mainly a general comment about the church and why we're thought of as hypocritical. It is often applied to gay marraige, but it's one of those things that could be seen in multiple ways. Is it harming anyone? Yes and no.
There is a very fine line here that is difficult to decipher. I can't say I've reached a conclusion either, but I do feel that Christians should not waste time on things they can't change when they could be showing love toward people in a way that could result in positive changes.
@Simbathe2nd - I get you. It's a tricky question, because the answer depends on how a person's view of "not hurting anyone" is defined.
Personally, I think that legalizing gay marriage would be destructive in a number of ways, just as I think that legalizing drugs, and other things generally thought of as "do what you want" issues, would be destructive in a number of ways.
@merely_a_christian - Yeah because you have to look at the big picture. Sure someone who takes drugs isn't hurting anyone, but having them legalized and in the mass market could make our society in general dive.
Nothing in life is "Just to myself" everything effects everything.
Well, this is a christian nation so why not continue to base our laws on the book that this country was founded on?
The laws of our nation and the bible should be the same today, just like when our laws were written.
I think you really are on to something. This is a big problem with the church. We want to set laws to prevent abortion, gay marriage, and other moral issues. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that it's wrong for Christians to be for these laws, but I am saying this - making laws to stop this behavior will not keep people from doing it. If there's one thing I've learned from my job, it's that the law is not always a good enough deterrent. That being said, even if the law did prevent these behaviors it would not change hearts. Christ taught us to share the gospel with people and let his love change their hearts.
I've been reading a book that you might be interested in called The Myth of a Christian Nation by Dr. Gregory Boyd. Don't let the title put you off, because he makes some excellent points. For example, the kingdom of God is always a power-under kingdom. Jesus taught us to love and serve others and through that their hearts will be changed. The kingdom of the world is always a power-over kingdom. There are rules, laws, and consequences that ensure compliance. I think the only real way to address a lot of these issues is by interacting with people on an individual basis.
Here's an example, imagine there is a woman who is politically pro-choice who finds out her best friend's daughter is pregnant and that her friend is pressuring the girl into an abortion. This woman invites the young girl into her home, helps her get the best pre-natal care, and helps her with the baby after it is born. She loses her friend as a result of these actions. Now, politically she may be pro-choice, but her life is more pro-life than a lot of people who politically against abortion.
God never intended for us to rule over or tell the non believers how to live. We are to be about the Fathers business, and that never included mandating Christian law to the world.
@ShamelesslyRed - Very well said.
@one_eared_batman - This isn't a "Christian Nation". It's a nation centered around the freedom to practise one's own religious beliefs. Therefore, it is a nation of no centric religious affiliation; as having one would be contradictory to the First Amendment.
The Bible's teachings, in many areas, are not relevant to today's societal standards. I, of course, bring up various aspects of Deuteronomy; one of which has women being perceived as "unclean" during times of menstruation; and are forbidden to reside within any area that a male has/will. And others similar to this.
The laws of our nation should be seperate from religious affiliation as per seperation of Church and State. Re-read the First Amendment.
@the_most_interesting_man - What I was thinking too is that even in the Bible, take the story of the Garden of Eden for instance, God said not to eat of the fruit and what would happen if they did, but he never forced them to not eat of it. The themes in the Bible are more about choice, love, and compassion, than laws, restrictions, etc. although they're also there.
I will check out that book and I like your example of the abortion.
@merely_a_christian - Explain how it would be destructive. Logical, secular reasons. Simply citing the Bible does not validate one's argument. Not in a debate.
@Simbathe2nd - Right. And the Jews had the law. It didn't work for them. The law only further revealed how sinful we are. It didn't do anything to help us stop being sinful. God's love in Christ can change us where the law cannot.
@Schristian - Any thoughts on the post? I'd be interested to hear your take.
@Schristian - That might be what it is today but this nation was a christian nation when it was founded.
The first amendment is talking about not setting up a religion as the nation's main religion. Like in the middle east where they kill you if you convert to christianity.
The man that wrote the first amendment also said that the bible should be used to teach in schools. So he obviously didn't mean what people think the first amendment means today.
And you're taking things from the old testament. Those things do not apply to us today. Those rules were to be held by the Jews during that time only. That's what the whole meaning of the NEW testament is. Jesus came and set up a new way.
I agree with this that Christians should show Christ's word with love and not law.
And I really would like to know how Gay Marriage harms anyone, and how it can logically be compared to drug use.
@one_eared_batman - how can one testament apply but not another one. Jesus ddn't 'come show us a new way', his disciples wrote things down from his time and believe that if any 'laws' should come from the bible, the original should be the one they take it from, not the one that modern man wrote. Just my opinion... I don't have the knowledge to debate this a lot.
@XDaemonessX - LOL I don't think it was being compared to drug use, those were just two topics being discussed at the time.
In general Gay marraige doesn't harm anyone, but then again with gay marraige we have something that will change an entire culture and we need to think of the results of not only an individual, but an entire society. Just a thought, really the most interesting man hit the nail on the head. If you read his comments.
@Schristian - "logical, secular reasons"? lol. So I'm going to argue based on your preconceptions, not mine?
"Logical" and "secular" are hardly synonymous, anyway. Logical, just means that the conclusion flows from the premises - and you already reject my premises, I gather.
@Simbathe2nd - I did read it. I was just curious... heh. Like I said, I don't have the knowledge to debate Christianity at all, I just have my experiences, and to be honest, they aren't all that great.
@XDaemonessX - Everyone has a different take on things and I did this post to raise discussion, so thanks for coming by.
@XDaemonessX - "how can one testament apply but not another one."
Because that's the way it's set up. The old testament is full of pictures and helpful things for us today. I'm not saying that we shouldn't read it, I'm just saying that the old testament law is not to be followed today. Jesus did come and show a new way. The entire Bible points at this fact. When Jesus came and died on the cross, he was the lamb like in the law. The Bible says he came and died ONCE for all. We no longer have to sacrifice lambs and oxen to get forgiveness because he sacrificed himself one time. When he died the veil in the temple was ripped down the middle. This was also a picture that the old testament ways were over.
And it's okay if you don't know much about this topic. How can you learn if you don't ask, right?